One of the things I expected to find out at the Intel Developer Forum this year were details about Pinetrail and Moorestown graphics. GMA950 on the current netbook platform clearly needs a boost in the video codec department and if Moblin 2 is only going to support Moorestown and Pinetrail along with the current generation of netbooks, it makes sense that they have the same graphics core right? It fits perfectly with Intel’s ‘continuum’ of devices on the Atom platform. Unfortunately the information on the graphics was limited to notes about OpenGL 2.0 ES and a mention of a PowerVR core in a ‘Sodaville’ Atom-based media processor presentation (image right.)
During a session at IDF this week though, I had fairly concrete confirmation from people in-the-know that the graphics on the Moorestown platform would be a GMA500 (PowerVR SGX core) as you’ll find in the Menlow (Poulsbo chipset as seen on the Asus T91, Viliv X70 and other mobile and long battery-life-focused solutions.) I was a little surprised that it’s the GMA500 but have no reason to disbelieve the info I was given.
Dovetailing nicely with that information though is continuing speculation that Pineview, the CPU+GPU on the Pinetrail netbook platform is also going to use the GMA500. The original info comes from a June article by HKEPC but LinuxDevices seem fairly confident that it is in fact a GMA500 core in Pinetrail.
Its looking like we’re going to have a very closely-matched range of platforms come mid-2010 then.
- Pinetrail Netbook platform. Atom 1.66Ghz + GMA500 GPU
- Menlow MID platform. Atom ranging from 800Mhz-2.0Ghz + GMA 500 GPU (with PowerVR SGX core)
- Moorestown Atom CPU (clockrate unknown) + GMA 500 GPU (With PowerVR SGX core)
- Sodaville Atom CPU + PowerVR SGX core.
Note: In each case the graphics may be clocked at different speeds ranging from 133 400Mhz. On current devices we see a 133Mhz graphics clock.
The exciting thing about this is that everything is aligned well to keep it simple for developers and there’s just one operating system that will sit on top of all these to provide optimised kernel, drivers, SDK and app-store. Moblin. From smartphones to netbooks through set-top boxes, PNDs, PMPs, Web tablets and more. One platform for developers that covers, in the 2010-2012 timeframe, an addressable market of over 400 million units, in just the mobile internet device and smartphone segment. Add a few hundred million on top of that for netbooks!
Intel’s ‘Continuum’ is starting to come together.
New article: Moorestown and Pinetrail graphics core thoughts. GMA500 likely. http://cli.gs/jmD35
The GMA500 is crap, I have one, it barely runs HD video on my SC3. My iPhone 3GS has better graphic capability. I’m just waiting to get a taste of Nvidias new Ion platform, that will be kick ass!
I think the cores are almost the same so the capability is there, it just needs those drivers. I hear that a new XP version is coming through and see below for Linux update.
All I ask is for a working driver that will allow me to use Puppy Linux on a Pinetrail platform, the perfect combination in my view.
If the driver had been available already I would already have bought a T91. Manufacturers, are you listening….
It looks to me that all four platforms are essentially based on the same core (LPIA). But intel seems to have found a way to scale the Atom chip to fit different device categories; with varying TDPs amongst other features. The advantages of this tiny chip is now emerging. It’s just been re-purposed into a HD-capable setup box brain. Mercedes and BMW are integrating it into their cars by 2012. Who knows where it’ll show up next? Maybe Samsung or LG will start integrating Sodavilles or another version of it into their HDTVs.
I’m fairly adamant it won’t be GMA 500 on Pinetrail. Does anybody know about the “Optional Broadcom HD Decoder” on Pinetrail? If Pinetrail has a GMA 500 derivative, it won’t need one.
Plus, everytime they mention the “200MHz” core they say its 50% better than GMA 950. If that’s a GMA 500 core, that’s not going to happen.
And one article claims a 6.5W(!) combined TDP for Pinetrail. If its a GMA 500 based one that’s with a core that’s exactly like Moorestown, it won’t use anywhere near 6.5W.
1. Broadcom HD Decoder: http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/05/25/intel-leverages-on-broadcom-hd-graphics-chip-for-its-pine-trail-atom-processor/
2. 200MHz “Faster” IGP: http://mydellmini.com/forum/news/9406-first-details-intel-pineview-atom-n400-d400-d500-processors.html
3. http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15410/35/
Good links.
It would be a shame if Pinetrail used a different architecture. It would break the ‘continuum’ ! on the other hand, 3d performance needs a boost over what existing GMA500 implementations and drivers are providing.
Maybe the Moblin SDK is the place to look for clues.
There is currently virtually no support for linux on the GMA500 driver, basically xorg won’t work with it. Presumably if moblin works on it Intel will release a suitable linux driver otherwise the future of atom for linux looks poor…
Novell told me that they’ve worked with a recent version of it and were quite happy. Look towards Moblin 2.1 release which should incorporate new drivers.
It looks poor even on windows based platforms becouse the drivers sucks ;]. Zan dont have problems with HD video but with opengl and overall directdraw support and performance. Iphone 3gs got downclocked and poorer version of this core but with good suppoert and drivers nad overall all games etc are coded for only this device.
I’m waiting for a maybe low-power version od ion platform for mid’s and umpc’s . It should be better even running with lower clocks etc .
The state of the graphic driver for the GMA500 is sad to say the least.
There is a half working proprietary driver for Linux available but that is nothing I’m to keen about. I want an open source driver. Otherwise I will look to other platforms.
If this isn’t solved it will bite Intel in the ass. With all these new devices running Linux but no suitable driver available…
the usual intel mess ….
U will probably find the iPhone 3GS and GMA500 share the same PowerVR SGX 535 and now intel should realize they need to stop going to Tungsten for the drivers and go direct to Imgtec.
Note that Wind River, the new subsidiary of Intel, is also involved with this process.
Pretty much agree with everyone here. GMA500 might be a really great hardware GPU, but the poor driver development really hamstrings users wanting to max out the potential of the unit.
If Intel wants to move forward with the Atom+GMA500 chipset, it would be in their best interest to do it with better drivers. It’s been a minefield for the folks that own UMIDs, Dells and Vaio P since they were released. This has been magnified for the Linux community, which is having to resort to even older drivers than the Windows folks.
Steve – come on – do you really expect one OS to reside over this hardware?
No chance … and if this is what they plan then it is a failure before it even hit the market.
Android on top of Moblin if natural. And you bet that Win7 will pop over it ASAP too. Intel cant be that stupid!
Tal
You mis-read me there a bit.
There’s one OS that can go across all platforms but yes, its not the only OS choice. I expect W7, XP and other Linux distros to still be available. Windows will still be the dominant choice. Even Intel are only predicting 16% linux by 2012.
Win 7 would make sense on this platform. Tons of apps, army of developers, another army of PC+Win users. Linux, whatever distrib you may consider, transforms Moorestown device into another boring piece of hardware. We already have Linux (or other unix flavors) on all high end smartphones. What would make Moorestown device with Linux OS on top of it to be so special? Please explain, I don’t know the answer.
Sadly, I think it will be much later that they’ll release windows 7 on Moorestown; and even if they did release it, you would pay double for the Win7 version of the MID without much upgrade in spec.
Those boring linux/unix/macos/symbian smartphones are selling loads and maybe Intel want to compete on that level, just with the extra codec/features support that x86 brings. Even if linux underplays the potential of Moorestown, maybe Intel are afraid at the extra effort it takes to get the mass-market to accept Windows on 4-5″ 800×480 screens.
I don’t think mass market will have troubles accepting Win7 on 800×480. Anyway, it is hidden under a friendly GUI. Question is, whether Win7 is flexible enough to fit in the pocket.
Otherwise, Intel will have to face a gang of powerful competitors like ARM, Marvell, Qualcomm. Besides, Intel has shown nice comparision chart between Menlow and Moorestown regarding power consuption. But what about Atom vs Snapdragon let say? Not so nice picture I bet. Then why there is so much noise about it? IMO, if Moorestown and further platforms will not use Windows OS, they will have hard time conquering the market.
Interestingly, intel doesn’t have to compete with ARM by incorporating the best of both worlds. Like Apple piggy-backed Windows onto MacOS with bootcamp and converted a load of windows followers, Intel could nest togeter an Atom and ARM within a smartphone device.
The device, like a mini HTC shift, would flip between Windows and Android/Winmo.You’d get a device with a full desktop whilst having hours of talk time and instant on/off capability – beating ARM at its own game.
I’d like to give my .2ct on the upcoming graphics chip:
Because the graphics chip is connected so closely to the CPU,and memory controller, even a GMA500 GPU will see a significant improvement.
First of all because the latency issues between CPU/GPU/RAM, but also because faster RAM is implemented.
So far it’s not clear if Intel will try to implement turbo boost on CPU and GPU. As you may know Intel’s turbo boost just overclocks a CPU (or GPU) to a certain value that is measured outside the processor (the temperature).
Unlike previous overclocking this type of overclocking is more accurate, and efficient, allowing the processor to be operating within certain thermal values.
This would mean that certain notebooks will work slower than others, depending on how well they are able to substract heat from the CPU/GPU.
I’m not sure if Intel will implement this technology in their upcoming Atom processors, but it would sure do the netbook sector good!
The upcoming graphics chip will playback most 720p video flawlessly. And will be aimed for that resolution. There’s speculation that if Intel will allow these chips to be implemented on notebooks with larger screens and resolutions, that the graphics might display 1080HD video, but that’s not so certain yet.
Apart from reduced latencies between RAM/GPU CPU/GPU and RAM/CPU, the CPU will most likely support 667Mhz DDR2 RAM, or even faster.
The GPU will increase performance with increased RAM speeds.
Also the GPU will be manufactured at a smaller die (45nm instead of 65nm). This will allow higher clockrates, while still having lower powerconsumption.
Lower powerconsumption of the overall system will mean lower powerdraw, longer battery life, but also a cooler system; which in it’s turn can be translated to higher overclock ability (as long as there is a good heat spreader available), but that will be the responsibility of the netbook manufacturers, not intel’s.
Concern has been uttered that the GPU/CPU package will probably get hotter, since both GPU and CPU are on one package (as where before they where separated, and a better heat dissipation was possible.
A valid argument, which we’ll see if this could possibly have negative consequences on the performance of both chips.
Most of the time, either a CPU (office tasks, encoding, program loading…), or GPU (watching flash based websites or video’s) is used. Only in a gaming environment where CPU and GPU are both ballasted, ‘might’ one see a reduction in performance, but that has yet to be determined when the product gets released…
I also highly doubt they will plug a GMA500 in there, it is more likely for them to pair this netbook with a more suitable, slightly modified GPU, which (knowing Intel) despite being on the same package with the CPU, will most likely not outperform regular notebook graphics.
Intel also made a comment when comparing their product to an ION platform, that their product will be focused on battery life, and will not compete with the GeForce ?9300/9400? chip series. Most likely the ION will outperform the upcoming graphics processor for the next gen Intel Atom CPU’s.
But a second meaning could be ‘powerwise’. Intel kind of leaves everyone in the dark what they meant with it, since it’s perfectly possible for them to manufacture a similar performing GPU, just with a way lower TDP thanks to High Metal K manufacturing process, and their 45nm design.
All these are but speculations, but they would make sense from business perspective.
We can only think it would be natural that the upcoming platform will not only overcome the Intel Atom netbooks for sale today in power consumption, but I believe in performance as well.
I think Intel spend a lot of time finetweaking their design to find a balance between powersaving, and the required power.
Then there’s the newer, more aggressive sleep modes which intel is working on. No say if they will be for netbooks, but I surely hope so!
Intel’s working on getting not only newer sleep states that require less battery in a low power state of the CPU, but also they are working on saving power through their GPU’s.
Different power states will lower the CPU even further down to 500Mhz (instead of 800), and in 2D applications will reduce the GPU’s core speed as well.
Also Intel is looking into ways to shut down more area’s in the GPU from power when not in operation, or not needed.
These powersavings will result in an additional battery life, and cooler running system, which in turn could benefit Intel’s Turbo Boost.
This all is good news, but unless we’re sure this information applies to the upcoming platform we’ll be little with this info (at least for now)!
Even if not now, Intel must be working to see how it can apply these improvements in netbooks!
With current 6 and 12 cell batteries, we might be looking at netbooks with a real-life 12-15hours of battery life per charge, not factory time, but in real life (eg: when browsing or listening to MP3)!
The added cost of the processor, and Windows 7 (since XP will be discontinued sooner or later), will probably force manufacturers to go for lower capacity batteries (eg: 2, 3, or 4 cell), with about the same battery life as current notebooks, and an increased pricetag of between $50-150 above current $299 notebooks.
These are my speculations… They’re no final words though…
My 2 ct.
Sorry, this reply was written with netbooks in mind, not UMD/MIDs.
It’s dang troublesome not to be able to delete or edit my previous (or next)posts…
Sorry, above article was written for netbooks, not UMD/MID’s.
As mentioned, GMA500 was never meant to be fast. It’s a slightly clocked up smartphone graphics chip with DX9c support attached. Therefore it is very power efficient, consuming less than the Chrome9 HC and performing about the same. (vastly poorer compatibility on older games from my experience)
A future SGX may use the DX10.1 hardware available to higher end SGX (54x) which would add very little if Intel choose to keep clock rates the same to reduce power consumption.
SGX with the right drivers should be able to handle 720P, however the trend for MIDs is to use a DSP to do it for less power. 1080P DSPs are starting to appear in cheap Chinese MP4 players, so we should see them soon in in MIDs and UMPCs.
Not sure where my previous reply went, but some driver info I have seen indicates that Moorestown is definitely SGX graphics, and highly likely to also include IMG’s video decode (VXD) and video encode (VXE) technology.
Drivers also indicate to me that Pinetrail is NOT SGX graphics, but rather a derivation on Intels in-house graphics techonology.
You mean that the gma500 is not a sgx graphics core ??
Sounds like the SGX535 core in the GMA500 is barely faster than the SGX530 cores in TI’s OMAP3s.
The 535 can do about twice the polygons/second that the 530 can, and the OMAP3 has its GPU clocked at 110MHz.
Even clocked at 400MHz, that’s still only ~7 times the graphics power of a smartphone.
Hyd,
No, I’m saying that driver info I have seen indicates to me that GMA500 is not being used in pinetrail, Intel is instead using a derivative of its own in-house graphics. I’ have seen two drivers, one of them is specifically for Menlow and Moorestown, indicating to me that Moorestown using the same graphics as Menlow (maybe clocked quickly). The other driver I’ve seen is for Intel’s inhouse graphics, a driver for 3100,4000,4500 etc etc, which includes new definitions for “Pineview -G” and “Pineview -GM”. as an aside it also contains references for Clarksdale and Arrandale. It does not have any reference to Menlow or Moorestown. Conclusion would be that pinetrail is in the same family as Intel’s existing integrated graphics, and Moorestown is in the same family as Menlow.
BTW, the recently announced “sodaville” CE Soc from Intel contains SGX535 running at 400MHz.
Moorestown. Digging a little deeper. | UMPCPortal – Ultra Mobile Personal Computing – http://www.umpcportal.com/2009/09/moorestown