A sad moment and one I tried to stop. Origamiproject.com, along with all our links, tips and content, is gone forever.
I had a number of emails with people at Microsoft to try and get the content moved somewhere else but it seems that they simply wanted to remove it from their portfolio. Spam management won’t have helped the situation but I’m wondering if they wanted to remove it from their history too.
Along with UMPC.com (which Intel let lapse into a spam-fest and then into the hands of someone that’s obviously waiting for a re-sale; We tried to secure that domain too!) it was an important part of the online history of the ultra mobile PC that has faded away along with many of the other blogs that were around in 2006.
Another UMPC-related site that is closing its doors to consumers is BuildYourUMPC.com. These guys were very active in promoting the ultra mobile PC in the early days and I remember the effort they put into a good set of overview videos. We heard today that BuildYourultra mobile PC will be focusing on commercial projects in the near future and that the current site will be switched off soon. They have some stock left though so check it for bargains.
It’s a sad day for UMPC’s but the future is looking better. This month has been one of the best months in a long long time for UMPCPortal. More products, more buzz, more advertisers and more enquiries than ever before so we have no problem with carrying the flag. We can see the light, people!
New article: Origamiproject.com – Closed. BuildYourUMPC – Closing. http://cli.gs/ar0pJ5
RT @chippy: New article: Origamiproject.com – Closed. BuildYourUMPC – Closing. http://cli.gs/ar0pJ5
“These guys were very active in promoting the UMPC in the early days”
What’s the definition of “early days” if I recall correctly this name/site has been around when OQO 02 came out?
has been around when OQO 02 came out?
-> has been around SINCE OQO 02 came out, no?
It appears like the company (Build Your UMPC LLC) has been around (legally) since Feb 18 2008 that makes it 15 months old around when it is said to be closing.
In contrast to 14-15 months, http://www.dynamism.com/ has been around at least 12 YEARS (1997), while they haven’t focused on UMPCs only they most definitely have been focusing on small compact and pocketable products all along.
Nothing wrong with promoting a sponsor of your site, right? :)
UMPC’s have great technology as many can provide a full PC power in a pocket size device but it is clear with UMPC’s having weak sales and these sites closing that a radical shift in desing of these devices are needed.
The basic issue is that everyone uses touch type keyboards when the use a full PC and related softwares so using a thumb key set up or pen input is just plain stupid and the sales so far prove that. Wake up folks if new UMPC’s continue to make the same type of designs of pen input or thumb input the entire UMPC market can suffer the same fate of those sites closing!
What we need to see is them using the technology of making a full PC pocket size but find creative designs that still provide a built in touch type keyboard. The no brain design would be just a basic clamshell like a HP Jornada 720 type desing or the more sleek and better Psion 5mx. Creative multi-fold designs could be used as well. But the bottom line is that if no new UMPC’s provide a touch type keyboard computer that is still jacket pocket in size when folded then here is my prediction.
UMPC’s will be virtually extinct. I predicted the fate of OQO right after the product was launched. They are a prime example that without a keyboard they will fail. Sites that try to promote what people do not want will suffer the same fate.
Al, if you don’t want an UMPC but a Netbook or Sony P (from your need for touch typing comments) why insist on bashing a category (MID/UMPC) that if they are going to be pocketable as they’re inteded to be will never have full touch type capability, due to law of physics :)
The Jornada handtops (yes had one for several years and loved it) was not really pocketable. As for your OQO comment lack of funds and thereby virtually no change to HW (design) in over two years are surely more to blame than the great (albeit lacks) keyboard the OQO 02 has.
If you do a little of research you will see that more ppl access the web already with thumbboard/touchscreen devices than with traditional KB equipped devices? This is a fact!
It’s downright entertaining to read your insisting that these devices are bound to fail just because you personally insist on not being more openminded and trying to learn to use devices that use more modern ways of imputing text. One can be as effecient on thumbboards as on a tradtional KB it requires only a decent KB and an open mind.
UMPC’s have great potential but not with repeats of the same variation of the form factor that have proven to be unpopular for years. UMPC’s have sold less than 350K a year.
Laws of physics? The Jornada 720 and Psion 5mx were definately jacket pocket in size. They would slide easily into any inside jacket pocket. The OQO since its first model to the proto-type 2+ all lacked a touch type keyboard. They never generated much sales and it is all due to a lack of touch type keyboard. Face the facts we are talking about full PC OS and software which everyone prefers to use a touch type keyboard.
Thumb input is adequate on a phone where you just view information and do very little input. A full PC computer is designed to use those full desktop applications and those are geared for a touch type keyboard. That is a fact! There has not been one full PC computer that has attracted good sales that lacked a touch type keyboard for that simple reason, that people do not want a thumb keyboard for full PC work.
To me it is laughable that UMPC owners continue to ignore reality, people have not wanted a full PC without a keyboard. Just look at the UMPC sales, look at OQO, Flipstart, etc. Can you type 60-120 words per minute using your thumbs? Thumb input is not efficient, and awkward.
UMPC’s can only work if they change the design to incorporate a touch type keyboard, if not the entire market will follow exactly what OQO is doing, they will not gain big sales, they will continue to decline in popularity/new models, and then they will die.
You know “I-can-fit-it-into-my-pocket” and “pocketable” are not really synonyms in this context :) shoplifters can easily get a car stereo in their jacket pocket and even larger things, nevertheless I’d like to see the person considering a car stereo “pocketable” oh wait I think I know of one :)
At 1.1 Lbs (around 0.5Kg) and 7.4 x 3.7 x 1.3 inches (18.9 cm x 3.4 cm x 9.5 cm) yes you can FIT it into a winter jacket but you won’t be comfortably carrying it around in your suit jacket, trust me “been there done that” so NO for most of us it can’t be considered pocketable, frankly I’d rather have a Sony P size device than the Jornada 720 today, yes back in the day they offered a feasible alternative, and in fact there was (as I have pointed out so many times) LESS of a “step” between the Jornada then and the desktop of the day in computing power than there is today with ANYTHING you can stick in your pocket (being sold new).
Oh I almost forgot there’s plenty of people that feel the Jornada is too big for the pocket see the CONS and review comments here:
Cons:
* It’s heavy and too big for most pockets
* Difficult to use without sitting it down on a flat surface
http://www.amazon.com/Hewlett-Packard-Jornada-720-Handheld/dp/B00004ZEPB
Second CON also something that is VITAL on a product to go, just look at the UMID video how the angle of screen and kb is not ideal.
I have owned both the HP Jornada 720 and Psion 5mx and I carried them all the time in my suit and sport coats with no problems, trust me I’ve done it for years! Sure it would be nice to find a way to make a modern version light and maybe that can be done with current technology. The key thing is there is a strong demand for just a simple laptop in your pocket that has a touch type keyboard.
Remember those type of handhelds like the Jornada? They sold over 2.3 million a year even with an operating sytstem that was still not perfected and would crash every so often. Now look at your UMPC’s after years they still only sell 350k worldwide. Imagine a UMPC that was a modern Psion or Jornada type device that now runs the reliable Vista or XP OS that would sell even better than the handhelds did over a decade ago.
I would not want a Sony P over a computer that was the size of a Jornada 720. The UMPC’s could be made 7.4″ but then a little wider say up to 4.25″ as that dimension fits easily in inside suit and jacket pockets and then make it thin under 1″. To me if a computer can not fit in the limitations of an inside jacket pocket than like most people I’d have to carry the PC in a bag so at that point I’d just buy a laptop.
A jornada is anything BUT handheld imho.. You cant use the thing without setting it down somewhere. Furthermore I think the classification for these devices is all wrong. Pocketable is an illogical term that doesnt really mean anything. They should call it HHPC or TTPC (hand held or table top).
Claiming the Jornada is more productive then say an OQO, is utterly stupid. Lets see who will be faster when youre typing out a quick email on the bus while holding the device. Youd have to hold a Jornada with one hand while jabbing at it with only one hand, probably having to tip it all awkward to get within the screens tollerable viewing angle.
The fact is, AI, you are trying to muscle the odd ducks in with the true mobile computers. Mobile means you can use it on the move, without having to set it up somewhere.
@Al
You know what you are contradicting yourself here :) At one place you state:
“Wake up folks if new UMPC’s continue to make the same type of designs of pen input or thumb input the entire UMPC market can suffer the same fate of those sites closing!”
Then you say:
“millions would buy” & “people want”
If this is truely what people are crying for as you make it sound, why do you have to tell the public (us) to WAKE UP? :) I think I know who needs to wake up and smell the coffee as it were, as you’ve missed the train it seems.
“my suit and sport coats with no problems, trust me I’ve done it for years!”
Trust me I have no doubts that *YOU* have done this for years! :)
“They sold over 2.3 million a year even with an operating sytstem that was still not perfected and would crash every so often. Now look at your UMPC’s after years they still only sell 350k worldwide.”
You always insist on misleading numbers, the 720 survived for TWO YEARS, that’s it, don’t know where you get your numbers but even if they are factual that’s ONLY 4.6 million, keeping in mind that there really were no serious contenders at the time, would put it in perspective and the fact that OQO has NEVER released any numbers and that THUMBBOARD BASED SMART PHONES of the day STILL OUTNUMBERED those many times over of course has now value to your close minded opinions :) Oh how on earth did Apple succeed with NO KEYBOARD at all!? OOOPS! :)
“I would not want a Sony P over a computer that was the size of a Jornada 720”
Well I would for SURE, if it’s to have a touch type keyboard let it be REAL, you know what just hit me, look at HOW MANY complained about the EEE 701-900 keybaords being TOO SMALL to touch type, just about every review and most buyers, of them, so you know what people do NOT want a touch type POCKETABLE computer. I feel they want AS LIGHT/SMALL as possible as FULL KB as possible ala Sony P or then something in the UMID / AIGO line of things, all we need is better battery time and not too slow SSDs in them and 3G and pricing ok, and they will outsell your Jornada numbers :)
EC,
I agree with Al. Millions of prosumers, like me want an updated (full OS) pocket PC in a form factor like the Psion. UMID M1 is the closest thing yet to that and it will sell like hot cakes (if they get there quality of casing issue resolved.) A Psion 5MX was and is pocketable. I don’t know about a Jornada. I know people who carry the Psion around in there front jeans pocket with out problem.
As an IT Techie, I want a Psion with full connectivity and XP or Win7 (when it comes). The keyboard is was prevents people from buying into UMPCs as replacement PCs. This is why MIDs have gained traction, because the requirements are less. Netbooks sold simply down to price.
I agree with most of what you and Al said but to me the M1 is NOT close to a Psion or handheld. I owned a Psion Revo and the M1 while pictures make it appear to have a large size keys, it is not that case. The M1 is too short to provide good keyboard input to me. The Psion Revo and similar models were an unusual design as it was easy to type yet just under 7″. The M1 is way shorter and should have been longer like the Psion or other hanhelds in the past. It might do ok as with OQO going out of business there are not many options for a thumb based computer but I think the short size will limit its market potential to me. I loved the Psion but the M1 just is not even close to a Psion.
“The M1 is way shorter and should have been longer like the Psion or other hanhelds in the past.”
This clearly shows that you are NOT talking about UMPCs/MIDs as they mainly are intended to be used that is IN YOUR HAND when you are “on the go” hence the relatively large resolution on small screen and the keyboards designed for THUMB BOARDING.
On PDAs ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Revo ) like the Psion Revo and the Jornada 680-720 they were designed to be used while sitting on something, just like their larger brothers Jornada 820 & Psion netBook.
So while I LOVE qwerty keyboards and can live with touch type keyboards, devices that are designed from the point of being used on a tabletop (or the alike) are not very capable of being used when on the GO.
For those confused on these TWO different usages, maybe you can go to the archived origami project sites like these ones:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060423012446/origamiproject.com/default.aspx
and related MS UMPC site:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060616201518/www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/umpc/default.mspx
These are ON THE GO devices hence names like Mobile Internet Device, and **NOT** “Portable Internet Device” since we already know those as LAPTOPs/Notebooks and perhaps nowadays more and more Netbooks.
EC,
Are you making up new definitions? Psion was a PDA and more! It never was a laptop, you don’t need a lap, nor do you need a tabletop as you state. I think a term often used was palmtop because you hold it in the palm of one hand and use the other,
It was also an ON THE GO device as you put it with instant-on. Not the boot-up times required of a notebook et al.
With the Psion (and I’m sure people might add other devices/designs) you can use it in the hand when on the GO. Or put on a table, or the armrest of the chair. The form factor wasn’t the limiting factor, rather the software and how you used it. It wasn’t a PMP – it was an early UMPC. You could also send faxes, print, use IR etc.
UMPCs are so called because it means Ultra Mobile Personal Computer.
The Psion is Ultra mobile to a degree a laptop/notebook/netbook isn’t. So is a UMID.
You also seem to make a distinction between Mobile and Portable at the end. Well Mobile requires Portable and Portable requires Mobile. Perhaps you mean Pocketable. The Psion and UMID are, as are most MIDs, your laptop category most definitely aren’t.
You put what is inside a UMID inside a Psion and you have a better keyboard for what you want to do. People have written entire essays and even books using the Psion because its keyboard was so good.
I’m with EC on this point, I understand that Al is a keyboard fanatic but your points do not do justice to the ecosystem or with commercial reality (about 3 million iphone users will be happy to show you how useful touch is).
OQO’s problem in my mind has always been price. The type of device they produced matched with the high price made a small niche even smaller. Unlike Sony they didn’t have many complimentary different technologies under the same roof that they could borrow from to make their offerings more competitively price or to run a vanity loss making product. Also, while ppl say that netbooks killed UMPC’s – they didn’t really, very many early UMPC users were tablet or tablet curious users and you still see them knocking about with Q1’s/R2Hs and everything inbetween. A netbook offered nothing new or different, in fact due to the 40/60GB HDDs that were knocking around in the early UMPC’s they were a better proposition if storage was an issue. Netbooks however camped out on laptop/notebook lawns picking off the price conscious buyer. More importantly, they sat on OQO’s lawn as a mobility buyer. A eee pc 701 at 7″ and 3-4hrs battery life suddenly became a very convincing mobility solution.
Without making this post too long or boring, this leads on to the question of is there space for MIDs/UMPCs. Well I believe so – I must admit to be reluctant to let go of the 7″ screen in favour of a 5″ but I think in the future most MID’s/UMPC’s will be around the 5″mark. The usage will be everything from PMP/web-browser all the way to full pc (for the brave few ready to embrace the new tech). Back in 06 like Al I thought that either touch or typing would have to win to make the product mainstream but the success of iphone/blackberry et al has shown me that there is space in an ecosystem for multiple approaches. The 3rd device will be the bridge to better phones at one end and better laptops/desktops at the other. It sounds crazy, but the dream of the all-in-one device just isn’t practical for most ppl and the sacrifices made always result in disappointments.
Sorry but we are not talking phones guys. We are talking about a full PC computer. The input method for a full desktop computer is not thumbs and has never been thumbs. It is just that simple. Comparing phones to try to justify that people will enjoy typing their next report, essay using your thumbs is just plain crazy.
OQO’s problem was the lack of the keyboard. The lack of a keyboard is why most people would not buy one. An OQO is limited to using a full OS PC when you are standing which is not very useful nor often for that type of computing. Most if not all OQO owners do own other computers for that reason, the OQO does not provide the touch type keyboard to make enable it to be their only PC. Thus that is the real reason why they are expensive to most people as they are more a toy. It is like having a Ferrari sports car and limit it by using a tiny low-rider steering wheel and then making that steering wheel out of fragile plastic. If the OQO had a touch type keyboard then millions would buy it as the price is not much different than many the over 100 million laptops sold each year but it is just jacket pocket in size.
@Al
Actually we’re talking MOBILE COMPUTING :) and your Joranada is NOT a “full PC computer” it more “related” to the smartphones of today than any UMPC, desptite it’s size!
Yes we know YOU are not talking about phones, but the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS :) that was my point, so while you sit behind your screen making FALSE claims 24/7 about why this or that product or company failed or will fail the world will move on into more thumb boarding and more on screen keyboard (like it or not!) and UMPCs as we know them today will be gone, and other solutions/hybrids closer to todays phones will emerge, and phones as such will become more powerful.
I predict one of two things becoming the most common thing, CLOUD computing or/and virtual machines in your handheld, even without a complete virtual OS, like crosssover does it, meaning you can install ANY PRG intended for ANY OS on your smartphone/portable device (yes with THUMB BOARD :)) and run it from there, thereby “wasting” battery time ONLY when using running that prg.
My point is the size/shape and input method. People have proven that millions would buy and use a computer that is a handhelds like the Psion 5mx and HP Jornada 720 series devices. People have also proven that a thumb input and pen only input for a full PC is not what they will buy.
“People have proven that millions would buy and use a computer that is a handhelds like the Psion 5mx and HP Jornada 720 series devices”
Those are NOT REAL COMPUTERS they are the PDA portion of your everyday smart phone of today, and YES Millions do have and use their (thumb type equpped :)) SMART PHONES of today, which back then came as a separate “handheld” device a.k.a handTOPS as that’s the size they were.
We’re not talking PDAs here we are talking UMPCs/MIDs!
The people who used those devices not for the most part can do EVERYTHING THOSE devices could AND MORE with their relatively cheap and small smart phone. More and more it’s getting hard to define what is a smart phone and what not, as there are PLENTY of phones without any qwerty keyboard nor any typical smartphone OS that can do MOST of what the Jornada and Psion of the day were capable of :)
@AL
We all know it’s completely pointless to try to “confuse you with facts” but as plenty have pointed out to you OQO’s problem was NOT lack of TOUCH TYPE keyboard but a HUGE thing PRICE, just look at the COMPLETELY keyboard less iPod TOUCH (yep you can’t say that is a PHONE :) LOL)
Anyway as I said, pointless in pointing out facts to you :)
But I wouldn’t mind if you presented some **FACTS** such as hard evidence statistics showing backing up your claims, have any? :)
It is the keyboard and I do not know why you can not see that? Ipod touch? is that a full PC? no. It is not a full PC computer like an OQO where that type of software and the functions of that software are not very easily done with two fingers.
That is pretty basic facts. 99% of the world uses a full desktop OS computer with a touch type keyboard. So there is absolute no computer with a full OS that has changed how people prefer to use a full PC computer, fact!
“It is the keyboard and I do not know why you can not see that? ”
Proof please :)
“Ipod touch? is that a full PC? no. It is not a full PC computer like an OQO ”
No it is not a full PC more in line of a PDA just like the WinCE powered Jornadas :)
“where that type of software and the functions of that software are not very easily done with two fingers.”
Sorry no clue what you are trying to say here!?
“That is pretty basic facts. 99% of the world uses a full desktop OS computer with a touch type keyboard.”
Hehe I don’t know which world you are from :)
On the planet I am on there is an estimated 1 Billion computers http://www.worldometers.info/computers/ with current pop around 6.7 billion that makes out to around 14%.
Some outdated info (too lazy to look for current numbers) 50% of the population (3 billion) use a mobile phone:
http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSL2917209520071129
Now the mobile internet usage on mobile phones are said to be “Some estimates put it around 800 million, or 25%, of cell phones worldwide have Internet access.”
So real numbers depending upon how you shuffle the figures have recently indicated that internet access on mobile phones has passed number of internet users on traditional computers, this varies greatly though from market to market, some so called developing areas (which by my own definition when it comes to adopting tech are DEVELOPING and not standing still as some so called “developed areas”) have a “consumer is more likely to have access to the Internet via his or her phone than via the PC – mobile access outnumbers Internet access three to one.” http://www.mobilemarketer.com/cms/news/content/903.html that’s THREE TO ONE mobile phone internet access over computer access.
One must obviously acknowledge that the type of individual that would CONSIDER an UMPC / MID device would be very likely to be one to use “everything he can” on existing pocketable devices, and since those for now tend to be mobile (smart) phones these numbers are MORE vital than any computer sales figures. Since I believe most will agree that the “mobile computing conversion” will not come overnight like “oh finally there’s a computer I can put in my pocket, now finally I will buy it” rather it is a trend where people buy and try devices available NOW, in order to see what could work for them, be it UMPC, MIDs or smart phones. Not many sit around for the “ideal car” with the ideal features and price either, they get what is available and customize it if they are really keen on it :)
So like I said WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE the trend is NOT headed in the direction think/want it to be! FACTS ARE FACTS, opinions just that opinions.
I am sorry, but a disagree. OQO 02 has the best keyboard out of any UMPC series. If people want/need a full keyboard, look elsewhere. These UMPC devices are designed to be be “on the go” devices. I would whip out my u810 or OQO 02 while standing in line at Biggby coffee, but I would not do the same with my Acer One or Sony P. Now, I realize I can do the exact same thing on my iPhone 3G, but that doesn’t make the UMPC any less appealing to me. I recently began using my u810 to watch hulu.com as I work out, to download pics from my DSLR using the CF reader, to write a quick note to my students in tablet form and email it out while standing in line waiting for coffee, the list could go on forever.
You can say a lot about OQO, but the keyboard was the one reason I bought one.
I do agree with Al as so far the UMPC’s like the OQO are just toys to me. Why would I want to use full desktop sofware while standing? That type of use is much better suited to a PocketPC for a few hundred dollars with instant on. I personally think OQO was doomed long ago as the lack of a keyboard is why and I bet most people did not consider one. The market has spoken to OQO and the answer is so long thanks but no thanks.
Im just curious about the oragami site. I put the wed address in and i was forwarded to this address http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/umpc/default.mspx
am i missing something here?
You were redirected to the MS site because, as Chippy said, the OrigamiPortal site has been taken down. Note that there is a link to the OrigamiPortal site from that MS web page, which is now a circular link to itself.
Tge biggest problem with UMPC market to go mainstrem is the pricing. Yes, 99.9% of devices are framatically overpriced, if you compare to other products in mobile marketplace. Just look at Any OQO device and compare it to, let’s say, HP TX series Tablet. OQO looses in computing power, functionality, and price dramatically. The only advantage it fas is the small size.
Now compare UMPC to a Netbook. What is advantage here? Same computing power, same size, the only difference is a touch screen. Price? I am not even go in to OQO price range, The cheapest UMPC I found is CTL 2Go classmate. $499. Copare it to avarage netbook with same specs – $300! And it is not a secret Netbook market took off very nicely!.
What’s my point? People are not stupid! If you put aside handful of UMPC enthusiasts, or geeks if you will. Most computer buyers will go for the value! If I’d need a funcional device, with all the bells and whistles and yet still mobile, I would choose HP Tablet around $900, on the other hand if the size and mobility is the priority in my buying decision, EEE PC under $300 is the answer. Compare it to $1500 – $2000 OQO, or even cheaper Gigabyte Touchnote or M912 at around $600.
The truth is, people like mobility, not everyone needs to have DVD drive on it’s mobile PC, or some other high end options. In fact, most would go for simplicity. But people do desire touch screen, just look at iPod sales, and reasonable price! without it UMPC market will die out, unless someone like Apple comes up with compateble device, and spur competition in this market sigment. I hope those new Asus EEE PC tablets will be able to do for UMPC market, same as original EEE’s did for netbooks.
It is true people go for value. Most buyers are not computer tech lovers whom own multiple computers. Where I differ is that I do like touch screens but it is still the lack of a touch type keyboard that prevents most from considering buying any UMPC. When a full PC meant to perform the work of your desktop computer is limited to thumb input that is not a very functional or value computer it is an expensive toy.
People prefer the input of a touch type keyboard and that is reality. Tablet only computer have not generated big sales either. The only full PC computers that sell well have one thing in common, a touch type keyboard.
To me I do agree there are millions whom value mobility but all they really want is just a simple touch type keyboard pocket laptop. UMPC could be that type of computer but so far they have all made the mistake of using the wrong designs that all lack a normal keyboard.
@Al,
I feel I speak for many on here, that we all value your input as much as anyone’s input and it’s fine if *YOU* want/need touch type, I also don’t really WANT anything without a physical keyboard but I will settle for what’s out there now instead of sitting around waiting and crying about it.
***However*** when you insist on claims like “the lack of a touch type keyboard that prevents most from considering buying any UMPC” I think I am not the only one that reacts to your mis/uninformed statements!
First off in line with your first part of your statement, plain simply MOST computer users would most likely NEVER consider a UMPC/MID even *IF* it had ALL the power and features of their desktop.
Secondly deciding how the industry/market works based on your OWN personal preference/taste just doesn’t work, despite what you personally want (to see) the public might or might NOT be of the same opinion, and until you present some facts indicating otherwise, I (and I believe I am not alone) see NO REAL LOGIC to your claims.
“People prefer the input of a touch type keyboard and that is reality.” once and for all PRESENT SOME FACTS that people who would consider buying and using a pocketable UMPC/MID prefer touch type by vast majority please! So how does this compute with the Apple iPhone/iPod touch sales?
“value mobility but all they really want is just a simple touch type keyboard pocket laptop.” PROOF PLEASE or let it go! :)
Again I am not talking phones as that seems like the only agrument you can find to justify that somehow people will suddenly abandon the touch type keyboards they prefer for a full PC OS computer and want to do so with their thumbs? sorry but that makes no sense at all.
OK there are over 115 million laptops sold each year, about 99% if not higher all use a touch type keyboard when using any full PC computer, UMPC sales sold only 350k in 2008. So now you show me some proof that people will buy a full PC that lacks a touch type keyboard?
EC, I would like to see UMPCs be mainstream and huge success. But I am also realistic as the sales have proven that without the touch type keyboard everyone prefers, UMPC’s will never gain much sales and I would hope that the same fate of OQO can be avoided for the entire UMPC industry. Sure there are a tiny fraction of users whom love their thumb input UMPC’s but they will always represent a tiny amount of buyers so for UMPC’s to survive they need to have a touch type keyboard. Simple as that.
@AL
Read the facts above, people already HAVE ABANDONED touch type keyboard, or chosen not to “go there at all” you just won’t allow this fact to reach your brain! :) The people who used the Jornada like yourself or myself aren’t sitting around for another generation of it, we have MOVED ON, doing the same things and MORE on our pocketable smart phones!
This isn’t a matter of what you call the device, it is a matter of it being a TOOL (no pun intended :)) so while a car has been the ideal means of transportation for decades in many situations nowadays other means of transportation does the job better for those circumstances, regardless if that’s a bike a Segway or whatever, the same applies for this, MAJORITY of those who had a PDA called the Jornada can do EVERYTHING they did on that thing with their (smart) phone today and EVEN in many cases have the same KB if they so feel like they need it with a full (or near to) foldable BT keyboard.
“OK there are over 115 million laptops sold each year,”
Only ONE THOUSAND TIMES less than the sold mobile phones each year :) around **ONE BILLION** out of which a good portion some say 3/4 others less, but obviously it’s more than one in each 1000 (which is your laptop sales figure) use these for ONLINE activity, hence use it as a COMPUTING DEVICE and not just as a phone! These are the types of people who would even consider an UMPC / MID, majority of your laptop buyers will not want an UMPC / MID they want a laptop, period.
“So now you show me some proof that people will buy a full PC that lacks a touch type keyboard?”
Just read :) just read and digest it :)
“But I am also realistic”
Sorry but I must STRONGLY disagree with you on that one :)
@Al
For conclusion of this never ending debate with Al (I hope!!)
Joranda PDA users have moved on for the more part to using smart phones, yes 50% of the worlds population roughly vs. some 14-20% (estimated due to old figures) of worlds population using computers.
Out of that 3+ billion people some one billion use their phones for online (mobile computing) that’s roughly as many computers there are.
So if the number of computers and number of mobile phone users using the internet is NOW the same or close to each other, this speaks for itself. People are not going to REQUIRE touch type keyboard for their mobile computing.
Links with facts supporting these figures can be found above in other comments of mine!
THE END! (on my part)
Sure Jornada 720 owners and other handhelds have had to use other devices as those devices are so old and not in production anymore but that does not change the fact those same users would prefer a modern version of that type of computer and ideally would want it to run full Windows.
Yes most many people use phones and many of them do use it for some web use. The number of phones an computers does not mean that people are not wanting to do their full PC work with a phone nor do they want to do so with a thumb UMPC. Do people use their phones to type reports, and other full PC programs instead of a laptop or desktop? No. Now we give our children phones and even poor people with no use for a computer own phones which are a big part of the phone increase as land lines are becomming less of a need; but that has no bearing on full PC computer use.
You have not shown any facts that answer the question I posed to you, show me some proof that people now want to use thumb input to do their full PC computer work. Again all of the UMPC’s of every brand every model have only sold at best 350k in all of 2008. Face the facts for full PC use people do not want to use a computer with a thumb input. Again we are talking full PC desktop computers not phones.
It was the same blind sighted attitude of OQO which caused them to ignore these same facts. The had great technology but built it in a device that lacked the functionality people expect when the do full desktop PC programs. They never had much sales, and the died a slow death. Even last year their sales were somewhere between 8000 to 13,000 units, that is incredibly weak. People do not do full PC work with a phone, the phones do not even have full PC OS.
EC,
Which hole have you been living in?
You are confusing different usage scenarios.
I want an HTC Touch HD or similiar. I would prefer it with a keyboard (like the Touch Pro2.) It doesn’t run the OS I need for all my business needs and wouldn’t be a replacement for a laptop/desktop. It would be very useful for communication and as a PDA.
The Psion of yore wasn’t just a PDA it was a computer which you could program. It also (with attachments) could print out, send faxes etc. just like any other PC. Just the OS was different.
Unfortunately for most of the world we are tied in to Windows. At work the software I use and support is Windows. Therefore I need a device which runs Windows. I know that except bespoke programs you can run the same type of program on many other OSes including WinMo, Linux, OSX etc. That doesn’t matter to me, know to millions of people. When they are looking for a PC on the go, they want it to be Windows.
When using Windows, you want the right means of input for the OS (In a dream world the OS would be adapted to the means of input – and we will get there.)
This means a usable keyboard. I hope you now get the point that an iPhone etc. do NOT might the criteria. And personally I don’t like Touchscreen keyboards, and I don’t know many who do. They suffice in a way that a thumbboard does. But if you want mass sales, based on the idea it is a replacement PC and just a PMP, Phone or MID, then you need to give people what they want.
If you could have a choice between a UMPC with a Thumboard, or one with a usable keyboard, which would you choose? I would and I expect many others would choose the keyboard. It is doable.
Sorry for the long response, but it needed to be said. Maybe Chippy could setup a vote on which preferred method people have with a UMPC.
Now we should get back to talking about what this article is all about –
Goodbye Origami.
@Vakeros
“Which hole have you been living in?”
It’s typically called the INTERNET :)
“The Psion of yore wasn’t just a PDA it was a computer which you could program. It also (with attachments) could print out, send faxes etc. just like any other PC. Just the OS was different.”
Just as most any smart phone can do today. As I think of it I am not aware of any PDA you couldn’t do those things from!?
Regardless of what you want to think the Psion was a PDA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_5
“This means a usable keyboard. I hope you now get the point that an iPhone etc. do NOT might the criteria.”
No need in telling me this, for me a device MIST have qwerty keyboard to be a real mobile device. You need to tell the millions and millions of iPhone / iPod buyers this, as this debate NEVER was about what device is better or such, but all about what the PUBLIC WANTS, and the numbers say otherwise.
“If you could have a choice between a UMPC with a Thumboard, or one with a usable keyboard, which would you choose? I would and I expect many others would choose the keyboard.”
It seems like have confusing different scenarios of usage :)
For MOBILE devices like UMPC, MIDs, and smart phones you need to have a keyboard you can use without HAVING TO put it down, this obviously isn’t possible on your traditional touch type keyboard solution. Touch type kind of keyboards are suitable for devices that might be portable to be used at location A & B etc but not between the two when you are on foot.
However the UMPCs, MIDs and smart phones (which from a KEYBOARD aspect have much in common as they are designed to be used when on the go and on foot) can not revolve around touch typing, just not possible unless you have more arms and hands than the average person? :)
Hi EC,
The internet can inform or mislead. The Psion wasn’t only a PDA. I appreciate the link to wikipedia. What differentiates a PDA from a PC? A PC is programmable. It had its own OS. So regardless of what the internet link says, you need to decide on definitio first.
Secondly, most smartphones (and I own one with a keyboard.) can do everything a PDA could. We are in complete agreement with each other.
Thirdly, I understand Al’s (primaz or whatever his name is at the moment) frustration in corresponding with you. I am not stating, and never have, that you need a QWERTY keyboard for a mobile device. There are millions of devices without keyboards and people use them and love them. If you have the right UI you can get away without one for MOST uses. The keyword here, which you don’t seem to have understood is MOST! I will get another smartphone because it is very useful for me. I might even get one without a keyboard. But the key thing about a UMPC is the need for a decent keyboard. Yes, you want to be able to use it for SOME of its use without needing to put it down on something first.
The key point however is, when I need to be able to type, I am willing to put it down on a coffee table next to my cup of coffee at Starbucks, (or wherever) and type more than a tiny amount of information. This is still ON THE GO, because I am not in my office. I might well be at someone else’s office, or I could be in the woods and use a convenient log. I might be halfway up a mountain and want to write a poem. THEN I want a keyboard. OQO sold itself as a UMPC. This means that meeting only MOST of requirements wasn’t good enough for the cost required. It needs to meet ALL. Until alternative methods of input supplant typing, for documents, spreadsheets etc. I cannot use a UMPC as it doesn’t have a decent enough keyboard. Therefore as Al puts it, it is doomed to fail. A MID isn’t the same as a UMPC, in that the usage requirement is less stringent. It is a Mobile Internet Device, not a PC in the Pocket, which a UMPC is.
Frankly, with all that said here…, I prefer handwriting recognition. It is more natural and fast while you hold UMPC in your hand, so you don’t need to look for some kind of a table or a desk, it is faster, and more convinient. I don’t remember when I used keyboard on my Gigabyte M912 last time. I just wish it was lighter. And I am sure I am not alone, with this habits ;)
I agree with Al and Vakeros when I think of an origami or UMPC it means a computer with the same operating system and abilities of my laptop or desktop. Phones are not what I think of at all nor are Iphones or smartphones. Thumb keys or pen input is definately NOT what I think of either. I think it is very simple many of use would rather have a pocket version of our laptops and that would definately mean a keyboard in the normal sense.
The work we all do with desktop software is not easily done nor would I want to attempt it with thumb keys or pen input. I think since the origami site and the UMPC market do not provide what most would consider a normal computer that is mobile, the site just had no traffic and thus can not afford to continue.
@Jlow
Let’s not make this any more confusing than it is already. This debate here was never about OS vs. OS but it was all about the claim that UMPCs will downright completely fail unless or until they have touch type keyboard on them. The only reason smart phones, iPhones and the alike came into the subject is that they prove that the “masses” aren’t looking for touch type keyboard on the mobile devices.
Now to keep this whole thing within perspective we MUST keep in mind that a MOBILE device intended to be used when ON THE GO as the ORIGAMIPROJECT was with it’s UMPCs and TABLETS (yes TABLETS, ironic isn’t it that this turned into a KB debate LOL).
Just have a quick look at the picture ORIGAMIPROJECT .com URL directs you to, it gives you a clear understanding of where & how these devices were intended to be used:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/umpc/default.mspx
So while I do for now settle for my combination of two smart phones as for now there is no UMPC/MID that quite completely fills my needs, I am just as much as the other person here for a FULL DESKTOP OS (or ability to run prgs designed for such) on my mobile full qwerty keyboard and here is the key point *WHILE I AM ON THE GO WALKING AROUND*. You can NOT walk around and use a device designed for touch typing! This is where the whole smart phone topic comes into the picture.
Designed to be used when on the go (as in WALKING AROUND):
UMPCs & MIDs
Smart phones
etc etc
NOT designed to be used when on the go (but to be portable from point A to B):
Netbooks
Sony Vaio P (type of devices)
etc etc
Let’s not confuse these VERY different user scenarios! They really have little in common from how they were designed to be used.
ok I see. But to me I might think that they will completely fail but I do agree that they will not be very successful without a keyboard. I do think the masses are looking for a touch type keyboard UMPC and that is why they have had such poor sales so far. To me if a computer does not have a keyboard then it is very limited in the types of things I could do with it. A thumb key computer to me using UMPC is not very practical as a PocketPC would do the job better. A pen only input computer would be nice maybe for limted sketching, drawing, or handwritting use but I’ve never found the pen accuracy to be very good compared to just plain old fashion paper?
What I would like to see is a UMPC that looks like the Psion Revo I used to use. If you ever used one they are best used for touch type input but with the size just under 7″ you could in a pinch could hold it while standing for entering say appointments, etc. like you would with a PocketPC.
@Jlow
This is where the smart phone (and alike) topic came into the picture, based on the volumes of such sold it should be VERY evident that people are not “requiring” touch type capabilities for the mobile computing, in fact as pointed out. Mobile computing (on the go, walking/standing) is *NOT POSSIBLE* with touch typing, at least not for me with the limitation of having only TWO ARMS&HANDS! :)
The number of laptops sold, has nothing to do with MIDs and UMPCs, as it would like comparing mobile phones and laptop sales, they really don’t target the same consumer group. The “smarter” the smart phones get the less likely the MID/UMPC segment is to succeed obviously. But for those looking for TOUCH TYPING it’s NOT a mobile on the go device they want, they want a PORTABLE device (pocketable or not is just a side thing).
However there are some devices that somewhat push both categories like the UMID M1, however as has been pointed out both by those using it on the go as well as those trying to touch type on it really isn’t ideal for either!
OQO 02 with a more “normal” layout of the keys, half the thickness and lighter (in the AIGO range) would be an instant success if in the right price range!
EC,
I think you are merging mobile computing that is not full Windows with mobile computing using full Windows software. The type of mobile functions that people would do while walking are not full Windows programs; Windows Mobile used for Pocket PC’s are designed for that limited input type of use.
I think that is where OQO made the mistake of not using the right design so that it would make the ease of using full Windows enjoyable. They seemed more focused like a contest as how small can we possibly make it without thinking about how we use the kinds of software used in full Windows.
I think the reality is that people do not want a UMPC to be used as a walking thumb input more PDA device. UMPC’s have full Windows which represents programs and work that is not meant to be done while walking. The sales of UMPC’s have been very small less than 350k a year which prove that the demand for that type of full Windows use is not what people want.
I do agree that and OQO 02 with more “normal” layout of keys, half the thickness and ligher would be an instant success. To me the key requirement to provide a “normal” keyboard layout would be to increase the length to about 7″ to even as long as 7.5″; the width could be increased to 4″ or even 4.25″ which would make it more feasable to make it ultra thin. That larger size does not limit it from being jacket pocket in size though.
To me UMPC’s and the Origami Project so far have failed to use the cool ability of shrinking full Windows into the right size, shape, and input method for the computers to be easy to use and thus generate sales. Maybe finally UMPC companies will see the light? I think you and I do share similar ideal visions of a UMPC but you are more defense to justify your purchase of UMPC’s. I do own a UMPC but have no reservations to be critical of all UMPC’s as they do not provide an easy way to use full Windows and if something is not improved soon the fate of UMPC’s could be just like the Origami Project.
The price to me would depend on how well the keys are designed. If the key layout is like a Psion 5mx or as another person listed a Revo which is similar the key layout would provide very good feel for typing and enable a higher price. If it was not was well laid out then the price should reflect that to me. I think the price could be anywhere from $700 to $1500 depending on the design and ease of use.
“I think you are merging mobile computing that is not full Windows with mobile computing using full Windows software. The type of mobile functions that people would do while walking are not full Windows programs; Windows Mobile used for Pocket PC’s are designed for that limited input type of use.”
This is where you have COMPLETELY missed the point it would seem, it’s like you haven’t read a single article on this site or JKKmobile the whole UMPC concept is just that FULL WINDOWS when you are WALKING AROUND! Not at a table!
Al you are getting concepts totally confused here please do not get the idea of MOBILE internet device confused with Windows Mobile! :) you’re really funny at times! :)
“I think that is where OQO made the mistake of not using the right design so that it would make the ease of using full Windows enjoyable. They seemed more focused like a contest as how small can we possibly make it without thinking about how we use the kinds of software used in full Windows.”
Sorry Al OQO was as all other UMPCs and MID designed to be used while WALKING and ON THE GO not at a table so there was no design flaw as such, just some issues with your comprehension of the concept :)
“I think the reality is that people do not want a UMPC to be used as a walking thumb input more PDA device.”
Well I am glad we have finally figured out where the problem is, the fact is you have just completely missed the whole point as to what a UMPC is, apparently you also completely ignored (as could be expected :)) the links I posted to the Origamiproject site as to what that was all about and what UMPCs are! Oh dear :)
“UMPC’s have full Windows which represents programs and work that is not meant to be done while walking.”
LOL You’re really making a fool out yourself making statements like this on a site called UMPCportal what else can I say :) you might need to calibrate your “UMPC compass”. I guess you also completely ignored the word TABLET as was very keyword in the original UMPC idea, a tablet obviously is designed for JUST THAT to have FULL OS while walking around, be it in a warehouse or for other mobile computing! I am starting to understand now why you are not on the same wavelength as most of us on here, you’ve just simply missed or chosen to IGNORE the point of the UMPC in the first place.
“I do agree that and OQO 02 with more “normal†layout of keys, half the thickness and ligher would be an instant success.’
Plenty have told you the REAL reason for the OQO not succeeding, and while I mentioned more “normal” layout my comment was referring to some of the characters having an odd location such as the “?” symbol just have a look for yourself: http://www.math.uaa.alaska.edu/~afkjm/techteach/files/oqo/Big/front.JPG
“To me the key requirement to provide a “normal†keyboard layout would be to increase the length to about 7″ to even as long as 7.5″; the width could be increased to 4″ or even 4.25″ which would make it more feasable to make it ultra thin. That larger size does not limit it from being jacket pocket in size though.”
So Al why are you insisting on debating with us who are looking for a device that is to be used for MOBILE (WHILE WALKING AROUND) COMPUTING, when *you* really want a portable device that is to be used on a table as in Netbook or Sony P, just go and get yourself one of those or the HTC shift and let us discuss the MOBILE devices we want to use :)
“To me UMPC’s and the Origami Project so far have failed to use the cool ability of shrinking full Windows into the right size, shape, and input method for the computers to be easy to use and thus generate sales. Maybe finally UMPC companies will see the light?”
And *who* are you that the fact that is has “failed” for you would matter to Microsoft, or the general public of the world? :) See “your light”? I have a feeling there’s not much light at your end of the tunnel :)
“I think you and I do share similar ideal visions of a UMPC but you are more defense to justify your purchase of UMPC’s.”
You know we do not share much in this aspect trust me! :)
“you are more defense” I’m sorry I have no clue what this means. I have nothing to defend, if/when I buy a device I don’t like I sell it, I’m not worried about the $700 or $2000 I spent on the Aigo or OQOs I’ve had or have, I sell them and get my money back (a good deal anyhow), and get a “priceless” amount of experience using them, it sounds like you’ve not done any mobile computing for years on the various tools that are available to do so while on foot. I reply on here 90% of the time while I am on the go, either on my SK or on the iP :)
“If it was not was well laid out then the price should reflect that to me. ”
I’m sorry but I believe this site isn’t here for discussing topics like “laid” :)
@AL and everyone who has followed me being stupid enough to reply to AL,
I think you should read this:
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/umpc-portal/
Intel defines:
What is a UMPC?
And a certain somebody replied “I disagree…”
Al, how about you continue this subject with MS and Intel directly. Thank you! The end! BYE!
@AL
primaz, why do you hide behind so many names? :)
@Al,
What people really want isn’t touch type keyboards but to BAN YOU! :)
http://www.oqotalk.com/index.php/topic,3708.0.html
Origamiproject thread became a thumbboard vs touch type debate, oh I have nothing to do with it becoming a debate http://tinyurl.com/cmksfe
EC,
The market has spoken, they did not buy UMPC’s in huge numbers and thus far they continue to have weak sales. The origami project is just another example of the failed UMPC devices not meeting what people want. It is simple if people wanted full PC computers with thumb input they would have purchased them in big numbers but they have not. OQO is another example of yet another failed UMPC design along with Flipstart and others. You are defending a unpopular type of computer that if it does not adapt and provide a touch type keyboard will all face the same fate. You are too ignorant to see that you do not represent what most people want in a computer.
Al aka james aka Sal_R aka primaz aka james88 etc etc etc,
Public has spoken:
http://www.oqotalk.com/index.php/topic,3708.0.html
:)
I might be too ignorant but Al(an) why don’t you start an email and snail mail frenzy to Intel so they can know that people want touch type keyboard.
I mean something like this:
http://www.stripersonline.com/surftalk/showthread.php?t=652847
:) :) :)
The origami project is just like the real status of umpc’s to me, not much. It seems like there are less and less new devices. I doubt that there is any light in the future. Especially reading some of these posts. I do not want to join the debate but do agree that the umpc’s should just try to be coat size laptops alternatives. Right now the new umpc’s look rather dull and more of the same old stuff that has generated no excitement.
Point well made.
There are very few new UMPCs. However I think the UMID is one. EC seems to think a UMPC is a PMP or MID or Phone. Yet it can be all these things, but at the heart it is a replacement for your laptop as you say “in your pocket”.
It doesn’t have to have a laptop design, but needs to be able to do all a laptop can (though acceptably slower for somethings.)